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Welcome back to the show everybody well There's been a lot of talk about how the SEC versus Ripple case will resolve and We don't know the answer but I'll tell You this I was fortunate enough to sit Down with the one and only Thalia Sharmani from Winston strong who played A role as an amicus brief filing in the SEC versus Ripple and has recently sat Down and talked about also filing an Amicus uh brief filing in the SEC versus Wahi because it is very important we're Going to hear from her on both of those Issues and her thoughts and observations And will the SEC versus Ripple case go To the Supreme Court well we sit down And talk with her somebody wrote that Beautiful intro Thank you [Music] Digital perspectives with Brad kimes Come on in Welcome back to the show everybody Before we get started I wanted to Highlight this tweet right here from Molly Elmore give her a follow we know Molly's been working with us so hard Inside of the digital perspective Mastermind group an instructor inside of There and we have a weekly show that we Do as well I tell you uh Molly is a Rising star in this space and a force to Be dealt with no doubt about it shout Out to her but what she shares here I
Think is important for setting the tone Of this conversation that I had with Dania sharmani and Molly shares here if Rippled were to win the case against the SEC does that mean it's done maybe the Howie case went three uh she says maybe But the Howie case went three rounds Before scotus ruling in the SEC versus W.J Howie case 1946. Howie won the first case and the SEC appealed how we won again at the Appellate level and then it went further And what's interesting here is you can See that Howie had not filed any Registration statement with the Securities Exchange Commission the SEC Filed suit to obtain an injunction for Bidding the defendants from using the Mail and instrumentalities Of Interstate Commerce and the offer of Sale of unregistered non-exempt Securities into violation of Securities Act 1933 is that the United States District Court of the Southern District Court Florida denied the injunction and The United States court of appeals fifth Circuit a court affirmed that and the U.S Supreme Court then granted Sarah uh And I'm going to get the I'm going to Get the name of this right let me say This properly Sergio Rory that's how you say that and Basically what that means is it's a writ Or order by which a higher Court reviews
A decision of a lower court in Syria Sharari okay well what's interesting About that also Is that it also says in law Sarah sharoi Is a court process to seek judicial Review of a decision of a lower court or Government agency Sarah sorori comes From the name of an English uh Prerogative writ it says here it says uh Issued by a superior court or direct the Record of a lower court by sent by Superior Court review now there was also Something I wanted to share here where It says uh Sarah sharari simply defined Is a writ by which a higher Court such As an appellate court reviews some of The lower Court's decision and then There's also this uh I wanted to share As well and let me find it right here it Is It's an examination of an action of a Lower court but then it also says here Let me just find this really quickly for Us here because it's really important That I find it here it is right here This is what is the difference between Sarah Sarah sharari and appeal it says The distinction of each lies with what The directive of the petition party Seeks it says the writ of mandamus Requests the court of appeals mandate That the trial court taken action a writ Of Sarah shatari says a request that the Court of appeals determine whether a
Court exceeded its jurisdiction Well that's interesting right there so We understand what that means now with That being said let me roll this Conversation with Dania and enjoy All right I am here with none other than Thonia sharmani from Winston strong and Let me tell you she filed Amicus free Filing for Val Hill capital in the SEC Versus Ripple but now she comes back Again they file an amicus brief with Winston strong in the SEC versus wahi is That correct Ania Yes that's correct we just filed an Amicus on behalf of the Chamber of Digital Commerce uh in the spending Action brought by the SEC in the District for the Western District of Washington well first of all shout out To Perry and boring and shout out to you For stepping up to the plate again and I Got to throw it out to John Deaton who's Been out here getting it too uh give us An overview very quickly for those who Don't know thania of the SEC versus wahi And what brought you into the mix here The SEC Accused this former coinbase employee While he along with his brother and Their friends of engaging insider Trading and it is not worth it that it's The first insider trading investigation Involving cryptocurrencies Well look at it I mean I I went as soon
As I hear something like that I think It's the first unregistered Ico which Was ethereum but that's a conversation For another video so but tell me more About your filing of the brief in this Case So as you know the chamber uh Is very involved uh in these litigations And in representing uh the interest of Their members It's It's a brief that needs to be before the Court uh to Kind of focus the court on what the SEC Is trying to do here uh they're bringing An action Against with allegations of Insider Training and the Chamber and the brief Takes no position as to whether these Allegations uh meet the legal standards However in doing that they are labeling All underlying digital assets as Securities One more opportunity for the SEC to try To regulate by enforcement and set Precedent isn't that what we're watching Here This is exactly what we're watching and We're also seeing it in a way that has Never been done before because There are serious concerns here about Their attempt to just label these assets As Securities in the context not only of An enforcement action that bypasses any
Type of proper administrative procedure In rule making but also against third Parties who had nothing to do with Creating or allocating these assets So the allocators of these assets the Holders of this asset Have no way of Rebelling the sec's assertions on the Nature of these assets which tutor could Not fall under the purview of the SEC But the SSA wants to bypass that part Completely in that way destroying Interest in those assets of innocent Third parties like secondary market Sales and Retail investors Tanya exactly Exactly Itself so the creators of those assets Will suffer significant harm to Goodwill They'll face the prospect of class Action lawsuits without having been Given any proper Forum to actually Defend the classification of the asset Same for the exchanges now they have an Action pending they have to confront the Threat of Regulatory actions and private Litigation and they might feel compelled To delist those assets that were Targeted by the SSC but No one is given an opportunity to defend Their status and at the same time you Have holders innocent third-party Holders of those assets that Use them for conceptive uses that will
See the liquidity of the assets and the Value of these assets destroyed So who who are we trying to protect here Because it's the So-called investors by the SEC that are Being hired I completely agree and when you make the Point about you know the people being Harmed that have the assets they're Trying to use it for consumptive use What what does this mean for the Opportunity for the United States to Play a leading role in innovation in This technology going forward I think it's extremely harmful and it's Something that Not only in the industry participants or Legal individuals who are involved have Said a million times you have sec Commissioners who said this commissioner Pearce has repeatedly said that we are Killing Innovation here the truth is That that type of regulatory uncertainty And the threat of this collateral Consequences will necessarily lead to a World where innovators just don't want To be in the U.S if you want to develop A project like that you will not stay in The U.S you will go offshore and at the Same time You take everything out of the U.S Economy you take it out of the market But also you reduce the United States Reach in regulating so you're taking
Protection away from the investors well Said and what are the next steps Dania For the SEC versus wahi and your Amicus Brief So the brief has been a filed with Accords in for live of court to submit This brief we're hoping the court will See the importance of the brief in Highlighting the SSS approach here the Briefing on the motion to dismiss hasn't Been concluded yet the SEC hasn't filed Its opposition and then defendants will Also have the opportunity to file a Reply and then we'll wait for a ruling Uh it's going to be an interesting Decision and our brief also Tries to highlight another issue with The sec's approach here The fact that they don't have clear Authority To be in this space at least not in the Way they're trying to broadly regulate By enforcement Congress has never Authorized the SEC to do this and You see that because the cfdc for Example is coming out commissioner firm Came out the day that the SEC filed the Ccv1 he and said that this is improper That what the SEC is doing is exceeding Its jurisdiction And this is not surprising Congress is currently considering Legislative bills that would at least in Part and in some cases in whole diverse
The SSC of such jurisdiction so it is Absurd to assert that the SEC has clear Congressional authorities here and in The past few years we've seen that the Supreme Court has very clearly expressed Concerns in cases where agencies take Such a broad approach to regulation Absent clear Authority it's what we call The major questions Doctrine which says That in cases where you have significant Economic consequence based on The reach of an agency Then the court should hesitate to Recognize that type of authority absent Clear Congressional authorities and Underlying the rationale is that you Need to have clear understanding of Legislative intent in order to allow an Agency To just a fact that the economic Realities in that way So am I correct that you're citing I Believe John Deaton had mentioned it It's the EPA versus at the Supreme Court Case is that the case you're mentioning Yes But it's the West Virginia via EPA which Is from 2022 but there are many other Cases okay including the Alabama Association of free Outdoors versus the Department of Health in 2021.20 in 2016. the court has said Time and time again That the agency cannot do this and
Congress cannot delegate decisions of Such economic and political significancy Without Clearly saying that Well speaking of the Supreme Court and Obviously them being in a position right Now where they are not afraid to set a Government agency back in its own lane Which is kind of refreshing Um let's move now to the SEC versus Ripple case there's been a lot of uh Opining about where this case could go Everything from settlement to split Rulings rulings to appeals to Supreme Court Is is the state of this crypto space Such that one of these cases albeit Ripple or be it wahi or something make Its way to the Supreme Court do you see A path like that as possible Yeah brother I I certainly do and I Think that could provide some clarity I will say that we still need Congress To act because all of these decisions Are based on the highway tests the tests That was laid out in 1946 that could not Have been articulated with the nature of Digital Assets in mind or The underlying blockchain technology but I do see one of these cases Getting to the Supreme Court and then The court will have to Grapple with the Fact that that test is possibly Inapplicable
It I mean that is to me Well listen you know I I really Obviously follow you know Ripple and xrp Closer than other cases that are Happening so when I speak to this Obviously I'm biased in what I Understand versus what I don't so I want To be clear for audience members that Hear that but uh you know when I see This there's a lot about this case it Suggests to me and and you and I have Had conversations in the past I know When you guys had filed the Amicus brief With the SEC versus Ripple case I had suggested to you at that time that You know Ripple and SEC could come out Of this with both partial wins in some Cases like John Deaton and other legal Analysts have suggested and then I feel Like you know one of the parties could Choose to let's say it's the SEC could Choose to appeal that decision partially And then it go to appellate court but Ripple could continue forward with a Great decision for them and and using Xrp U.S adoption and then it goes to Appeals court and maybe then it goes Again to the Supreme Court and the Entire time Ripple could be going Through Mass adoption growth in the U.S Xrp being used as a payment token as it Is intended to be and then ultimately Two three years later you get a decision And a final ruling from the Supreme
Court I mean is that a path that's so Hard to believe or is that something That's certainly plausible there I think it's certainly possible and I Think That ties the reality of what you just Described on how the network could Change on how the utility could grow Even more widespread Is exactly why so many participants in The industry are talking about the Framework discussing assets that form From a security to a non-security uh it Could be that the Court decides to say That at this point xrp Cannot constitute a Security based on The decentralization level that it has Achieved based on the consumptive uses That are undeniable in the case of xrp Now as to how this moves through the Court we need to be mindful about the Fact that the court is reviewing the Record before it And when the district core renders a Decision Then the appellate courts are going to Review the accuracy of this decision Based on what the district court was Considering at the time So we have an industry that's moving Extremely fast that's developing uh and Evolving every day and we could have a Decision uh That at that point is not going to be
Directly relevant to what's happening in The market Well you make so many good points there I I just want to go back and touch on The fact that Hester purse's Safe Harbor rule I think Could solve like 99.99999 of all of this if they would Just implement it and then Innovation Could Thrive and flourish and they could Really tailor that three-year period to Put some benchmarks in there for all of The startups to make sure that they hit These watermarks to become decentralized By the end of that three-year period uh It just it just I don't know it just Makes a lot of sense to me but I mean What do I know right but but coming back To the the SEC versus Ripple uh case and Where it is now the the number one Question and I'll put it to you and you Know obviously you field it however you You would like but the number one Question that I get every day on my Channel is Will retail investors Uh be not harm but be placed in such a Way that they can't get the asset Because the consumptive use of xrp is Really through on-demand liquidity and Ripple net and not through the retail Investor Market because that's the Speculative side do you have any Thoughts on that Donia So I I can speak to you from the
Perspective of uh The legal aspect of how this harms Retail investors and that's something That's common to Ripple that's something That's common to wahi it's certainly Possible that while the SEC is bringing These actions in such an aggressive Manner Basically seeking to just shut these Projects down completely because the Minute you regulate them in that way Then you take away the conceptive uses Yes retail investors are being harmed And will be harmed in the end Because the SEC is now seeking to also Say that they have authority in the Secondary markets as well So their regulatory Authority is so Expensive and so broad that based on These actions No One Is Safe no one Should feel comfortable uh Holding their digital assets and these Are all innocent third-party holders That looking at the sec's guidance in The past few years the speeches that We've seen uh have said that look if It's a consumptive use then it cannot be A security exactly I think you can't say it any more Concise than you just said it and I've Heard John Deaton say it I've now heard You say it and you know it just Uh you know when when you understand it That way how could anybody I mean you
Know who am I right but I mean how could Anybody rule that secondary market sales Constitute an asset whether it be XR xrp Or some other asset as a security is Beyond me And this is something that We are discussing in the SEC why he Breathes because although We're not taking a position when it Comes to The Insider Trader allegations The secondary markets aspect of it is Just an absurd uh Assertion by the SEC the fact that Secondary Market rates of digital assets Could be considered Securities Transaction is just deviating from the Way the SEC has been operating in the Traditional markets so we're look we're Seeing here that instead of limiting Their Authority that when they don't Have Congressional approval to exert any Type of authority here they're actually Singing to expand it secondary Market Rates die Definition and the way they operate Cannot constitute security actions amen Well Tanya listen uh I say it and I say It for myself I say it for my audience Uh we are extremely grateful for you we Are certainly grateful for John Deaton And all that you all are doing to really Take a stand to give all of us a voice Because without you and John Deaton and Others taking action the secondary
Market retail investor does not have one So thank you very much final thought Dania I think we should all be very careful in The way we approach these cases in the Way we're defending actions against the SEC we have to work with the regulator We have to find a way to have a Framework that's clear for Market Participants for the allocators we see That Market participants are showing up Val Hill Capital the Chamber of digital Commerce is doing amazing work uh we Should all support the industry and try To find a way to regulate and Support Innovation and support something That's revolutionary in today's economy Well said Dania and hats off to Perry And boring in the chamber of digital Commerce and all your work Tanya please Come back and talk to us when we get Some motion on either of these cases we Would be glad to have you anytime Brad Thank you for having me thank you There you have it ladies and gentlemen And I just want to thank Donia one more Time and digital I mean uh chamber of Digital Commerce Perry and boring in all Their efforts in the SEC versus wahi Case we gotta say a big thank you to John Deaton and his continued effort as Well look that's going to do it for me Not Financial advice for me or anyone
Else it's just our digital perspectives I'll catch all of you on the next one
